Tuesday, February 9, 2010

The wise man and the Prophet

 My Thanks to Reb David Guttman for his help in thinking of the idea behind this post and for posting it on his excellent blog.

A few days ago, I was asked a very good question about Prophecy, by Josh K. I thought we all could benefit from the discussion, as another useful backgrounder to tzelem.Here is the ,slightly edited, discussion.
Josh Asks


1) why is it that Jewish prophecy no longer occurs? If it is (like Rambam tell us) not a miraculous event in which God randomly selects an individual; but rather the individual must be of a sound mind and so on. Surely as the generations continued and people became more aware of their surroundings scientifically and philosophically our minds would develop as such.

I respond

What allows a person to shift from what we call "thinking" to "prophecy" is a matter of completeness of mind. We tend to think of this "completeness" as an ability to delight in the majesty of a unified wisdom expressed in the external world, love of God as seen in Newton and Einstein, Abraham, Moses and Rambam. In reality, this ability to delight in the unified wisdom of the external external world while necessary, is not sufficient to completeness of mind. To attain this completeness, one must also attain objectivity about oneself and ones humble position in the universe as well- awe of God. Note Rambam
What is the way to love and fear God? Whenever one contemplates the great wonders of God's works and creations, and one sees that they are a product of a wisdom that has no bounds or limits, one will immediately love, laud and glorify [God] with an immense passion to know the Great Name, like David has said, "My soul thirsts for God, for the living God". When one thinks about these matters one will feel a great fear and trepidation, and one will know that one is a low and insignificant creation, with hardly an iota of intelligence compared to that of God, like David has said, "When I observe Your heavens, the work of Your fingers...what is man, that You are heedful of him?". Bearing these things in mind, I shall explain important concepts of the Creator's work, as a guide to understanding and loving God. Concerning this love the Sages said that from it will come to know God.

This duality of wisdom- in terms of delight and humility, expresses itself in Rambam's view of the true Philosopher. Such a one must be very wise, as well as humble and well ordered in character. He does not just know things about the external world, this knowledge is the basis of his humble attitude and wise path of action.

Just as a wise person is recognisable in his wisdom and temperaments and is differentiated by them from other people, so also should he be recognisable in his actions: his manner of eating, drinking, copulation, relieving himself, speaking, walking, dressing and the conducting of his affairs with his work and his giving [should all be exemplary]. All of these actions should be as fine and as correct as possible.

This duality,of course, also expresses itself in the prophet

 One of the bases of religion is to know that God visits people in prophetic visions, which come only to exceedingly wise people of outstanding characteristics, whose inclinations never lead them to earthly matters but who always conquer their inclinations, and who are of correct temperaments. A person who fullfils these criteria, and is of perfect health, will, when he studys the foundations of philosophy and is attracted by those elevated issues and is of an appropriate temperament to understand and comprehend them , and sanctifies himself by moving away from the path of the common man, who concerns himself with ephemeral matters, and instead encourages himself not to have any thoughts about useless matters and its contrivances, but rather have his thoughts permanently attuned to above

As such the prophet is, to a very large degree, limited by his ability to perceive his place humbly. If a circumstance arises that a prophet cannot handle, he may become angry- unaccepting of his reality, and his thought or prophecy ceases.

There are some intermediate temperaments which one is forbidden to have, but one should adopt one of the extremities of such temperaments. One of these is the temperament of haughtiness. It is not good [enough] for one to be just modest, but one should be humble, and one's spirits should be low. Therefore, concerning Moses our Teacher it is written, "...very humble", and not just, "humble". Therefore, the Sages commanded that one should be very humble. They said further that anyone who raises his spirits is denying the most essential reality, as it is written, "...then your heart be lifted up and you forget the Lord your God". They also said that all those with haughty airs should be excommunicated, even if they are only slightly haughty. It is the same with anger, which is an extremely bad temperament and from which it is fitting for one to distance oneself as far as its opposite extreme. One should teach oneself not to get angry, even over something about which it would be normal to get angry. If one wanted to instill fear in one's sons or members of one's household, or in the community if one was their leader, and one wants to be angry at them in order that they will return to the good [ways], then one should show them that one is being angry at them just to correct them, and, when displaying such anger, one should bear in mind that one is like a man who is similar to being angry, and that one is not really angry. The original Sages said that if one is angry, it is as if one has worshipped idols. They also said that when a man gets angry, then if he was wise his wisdom leaves him, and if he was a prophet his prophecy leaves him, and that the life of angry people is not [really] a life.

In Jewish exile, it is extraordinarily difficult to not be angry and depressed about the circumstance of man, and one self. Living in a world dominated by ignorant and superstitious people is no picnic, as you well know. What sort of human communities will these people create? As you know well, this superstitious ignorance has enormous impact on every facet of life. In fact, it seems that it was a unique character of Abraham our father to so transcend his circumstance that he could remain focused on thought, despite the devastation all around him. Even Rambam was not so blessed. We look forward to our redemption from ignorance and the restoration of Wisdom and Justice as the basis of our Human community. This time, we are told, will also see the restoration of prophecy.


40  In our times, severe troubles come one after another, and all are in distress; the wisdom of our Torah scholars has disappeared, and the understanding of our discerning men is hidden.  Thus, the commentaries, the responses to questions, and the settled laws that the Geonim wrote, which had once seemed clear, have in our times become hard to understand, so that only a few properly understand them.  And one hardly needs to mention the Talmud itself--the Babylonian Talmud, the Jerusalem Talmud, the Sifra, the Sifre, and the Toseftot--which all require a broad mind, a wise soul, and considerable study, before one can correctly know from them what is forbidden or permitted and the other rules of the Torah.

41  For this reason, I, Moshe son of the Rav Maimon the Sephardi, found that the current situation is unbearable; and so, relying on the help of the Rock blessed be He, I intently studied all these books, for I saw fit to write what can be determined from all of these works in regard to what is forbidden and permitted, and unclean and clean, and the other rules of the Torah:  Everything in clear language and terse style, so that the whole Oral Law would become thoroughly known to all, without bringing problems and solutions or differences of view, but rather clear, convincing, and correct statements in accordance with the legal rules drawn from all of these works and commentaries that have appeared from the time of Our Holy Teacher to the present.

52 comments:

Hagyan said...

I happened upon a הלכה that intersects with some of these issues:

הלכות כלי המקדש, פרק י, הל' ט/י

עשו בבית שני אורים ותומים, כדי להשלים שמונה בגדים--ואף על פי שלא היו נשאלין בהן. ומפני מה לא היו שואלין בהן: מפני שלא הייתה שם רוח הקודש; וכל כוהן שאינו מדבר ברוח הקודש, ואין שכינה שורה עליו--אין נשאלין בו.

(I was led to this הלכה while puzzling out the איגרת לחכמי מארשילייא.)

Hagyan said...

... I think the phenomena of that הלכה also "connect" to the subject of תפילת חנה, that RR blogged about here recently. As the efficacy of the institution of בית המקדש wanes, there are many negative-feedback effects, such as: increasing equivocation in the prevailing notion of תפילה; declining efficacy of the "supports" for תשובה; increasing confusion about the status of הכמי אומות העולם vs. חכמי ישראל; ...

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...

Thank you Hagyan. I look forward to pondering this and responding over the weekend.

Hagyan said...

I made a mistake in terminology. Replace 'negative-feedback' with 'positive-feedback'. Wikipedia, in addition to providing useful examples, clarifies:

"The effect of a positive feedback loop is usually not 'positive' in the sense of being desirable. Positive refers to the direction of change rather than the desirability of the outcome. A negative feedback loop tends to reduce or inhibit or stabilise a process, while a positive feedback loop tends to expand or promote it and will often ultimately destabilise it."

Hagyan said...

The איגרת לחכמי מארשילייא hits the mainstream media 812 years late.

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...

Hagyan

I read the Rambam in klei mikdash. The connnection to the letter is next.

Unknown said...

The prophecy paradigm, I believe any discussion over prophecy need to differentiate between a torah giving prophecy, to a prophecy which tells us what we are doing wrong and what we should be doing in accordance of the torah/Oral torah.

In the case of a torah giving prophecy, it is my opinion once the torah been giving any other new torah giving prophecy is inherently false, as the new torah prophecy can not be beyond reasonable doubt “kosher” prophecy, in other words I will always have to ask what is the MOTIVATION the prophet have to give a new torah where you have a Kosher one already (Moshe).

In a context of a prophet give a new Torah. There are only a set numbers of dimensions where the prophet can apply his prophecy. After the prophet filled in his prophecy all the dimensions in our realties (I have suspicion that why we also call our Torah a Torah תְּמִימָה) any override/replacement/cancelation/adding of the Torah/oral Torah, inherently attract doubt why would you replace the Torah you already have? Therefore, the mere fact I can ask this question will make any prophet that gives a new Torah a false prophet and his new Torah false.


Therefore any religions which came after Judaism are false religion.

However saying that, the question I would immediately ask, what happen if a person in china which never knows the Torah gives a new Torah? Now I could have a problem, I would be grateful if Rabbi Sacks could help me and shed some light on my perceive issue of this stalemate:
We know our torah is true, we know their torah is false but the problem the will equally could mirror our position?

After the long preface I would like to ask the Rabbi, the question differently. Do we need a Prophet at all?

Please forgive my English

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...

Ilan

Thank you for your comment. I will try to respond over the weekend.

Unknown said...

Dear Rabbi,

If I could add one more point,

If I am by any way offensive or wrong or out of line, please forgives me and removes my post. I would like to apologize in advance to any errors in my thinking or believe I have writing on this post. Please let me know your thought.

I am not sure but I believe other faith use this argument in a different way, they look back at Judaism and saying, we the Jews falsified our Torah, therefore their Torah is true. and then , they use the argument I presented in a different way by saying any new prophet which can give a Torah is false.

my perceptive of what I believe is the Jewish way as I presented it above , the point is universal and objective from any religions and it is the truth . Therefore it is only my personnel believe, other arguing from a subjective point of view which I believe to the best of my ability is false .


Shabbat shalom

Ilan

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...

Its Ok Ilan, you have asked a good question.

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

Dear RABBI JONATHAN SACKS,

What has lead me to the view Judaism is the only truth, is the process of exodus from Egypt, one of the first clue I got it from
אֲנִי יְהוָה. ג וָאֵרָא, אֶל-אַבְרָהָם אֶל-יִצְחָק וְאֶל-יַעֲקֹב--בְּאֵל שַׁדָּי; וּשְׁמִי יְהוָה, לֹא נוֹדַעְתִּי לָהֶם.
The above sentence is one of many sentences lead me to the conclusion that our Forefathers represent the ultimate commitment, loyalty to knowing Yoke of haven. After the exodus of Egypt, Yoke of haven is not rational without the mitzvoth, thus G-d appear Genesis book numerous numbers of times in a dreams, G-d even appear to a not so reputable king in a dream and the numerous appearances the particular name of בְּאֵל שַׁדָּי.
Also the book of Joel, that name of G-d reoccurs several times. I believe both books represent for all monotheistic religion, a universal acceptance of yoke of haven by any human, therefore been adopted or been rewritten as their own books to.

But When G-d told Moses:

ככתוב (שמות יב): וַיֹּאמֶר ה' אֶל מֹשֶׁה וְאֶל אַהֲרֹן בְּאֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם לֵאמֹר: הַחֹדֶשׁ הַזֶּה לָכֶם רֹאשׁ חֳדָשִׁים רִאשׁוֹן הוּא לָכֶם לְחָדְשֵׁי הַשָּׁנָה;

For me ( שמות יב ) represents the ultimate moment for any one who know G-d.
It is also represents a climax point of the liberty and the redemption of Egypt.

From now on, the one who knows G-d can get closer to G-d.
”Although we are not physically yet out Egypt “
The critical point is only when doing a mitzvah we are out of Egypt.
This point, is for me a monumental seismic moment for humanity.
Moses change yoke of haven from a privet domain to a universal domain, from a yoke of haven to a yoke of mitzvoth. Reaching all human equally and made us all practically equal before G-d, he materializes the mission to stand before G-d. Moses removed the dependency on a disposition to grasp complex abstract concept, which is the cognitive aptitude to know G-d. Knowing G-d is hard and it is hard work for human to equal the depth of knowing G-d as our Forefathers.

For me the word “to you ““לָכֶם”underpinned my thinking, the question I have asked what the word “לָכֶם” encapsulate? What distinguish the lucky ones who can witness the moment yoke of haven become yoke of mitzvoth? for ever and ever? And earn the attribute “לָכֶם”.

I believe it can only apply to the universal person that know he stand before G-d.
Why it is universal person? According to the Rambam there are two mandatory commandments to Know G-d. And it is open to any person from any size color or gander, therefore only person who can “walk” the path of our Forefathers can accept a mitzvah.

I also think this also gave the birth of anti-Semitism, for me it also made all the other religion false.
Please forgive my English as it is not my native one.
Yours faithfully
Ilan

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...

After 9 av. Have a foundational Teshuva

Unknown said...

Dear Rabbi Jonathan Sacks
Sorry if I inconvenient you, I was looking at the wrong direction when I posted my comment. Now I see the voices and I am holding the tree of life…
And this is good for me…
as:
וַיְהִי, לִדְרֹשׁ אֱלֹהִים, בִּימֵי זְכַרְיָהוּ, הַמֵּבִין בִּרְאֹת הָאֱלֹהִים; וּבִימֵי דָּרְשׁוֹ אֶת-יְהוָה, הִצְלִיחוֹ הָאֱלֹהִים.
Yours faithfully
Ilan

Hagyan said...

Ilan,

Please explain your last comment.

If you like, you can reach me personally through my profile page.

Many thanks.

Hagyan said...

Rabbi Sacks,

Arriving back here after Tisha be-Av and another pass at Hil. Ta-aniyot (esp. Ch. 1) left me with a renewed interest in our interrupted exchange from months ago.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

Hagyan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

Dear הגיין ,
I try to write within Judaism, under great tree of Rambam
I was looking at the wrong direction, if refer to :
בשמות (לג:יא): "ודִבר ה' אל משה פנים אל פנים
and Direction need to be Straight,
תהילים פרק קז
* פסוק מ"ב: יִרְאוּ יְשָׁרִים וְיִשְׂמָחוּ

walk path is :

בראשית פרק כב
* פסוק ב: וַיֹּאמֶר קַח-נָא אֶת-בִּנְךָ אֶת-יְחִידְךָ אֲשֶׁר-אָהַבְתָּ, אֶת-יִצְחָק, וְלֶךְ-לְךָ, אֶל-אֶרֶץ הַמֹּרִיָּה; וְהַעֲלֵהוּ שָׁם, לְעֹלָה, עַל אַחַד הֶהָרִים, אֲשֶׁר אֹמַר אֵלֶיךָ.
I see the voices is :
שמות פרק כ
יד וְכָל-הָעָם רֹאִים אֶת-הַקּוֹלֹת
and
איוב
מב,ה לְשֵׁמַע-אֹזֶן שְׁמַעְתִּיךָ; וְעַתָּה, עֵינִי רָאָתְךָ.
מב,ו עַל-כֵּן, אֶמְאַס וְנִחַמְתִּי-- עַל-עָפָר וָאֵפֶר.
tree of life = truth.
בראשית פרק ב

* פסוק ט: וַיַּצְמַח יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים, מִן-הָאֲדָמָה, כָּל-עֵץ נֶחְמָד לְמַרְאֶה, וְטוֹב לְמַאֲכָל--וְעֵץ הַחַיִּים, בְּתוֹךְ הַגָּן, וְעֵץ, הַדַּעַת טוֹב וָרָע.

בראשית פרק ג

* פסוק כ"ד: וַיְגָרֶשׁ, אֶת-הָאָדָם; וַיַּשְׁכֵּן מִקֶּדֶם לְגַן-עֵדֶן אֶת-הַכְּרֻבִים, וְאֵת לַהַט הַחֶרֶב הַמִּתְהַפֶּכֶת, לִשְׁמֹר, אֶת-דֶּרֶךְ עֵץ הַחַיִּים. {ס}
this is good for me=
תהילים פרק עג

* פסוק כ"ח: וַאֲנִי, קִרְבַת אֱלֹהִים-- לִי-טוֹב:שַׁתִּי, בַּאדֹנָי יְהוִה מַחְסִי; לְסַפֵּר, כָּל-מַלְאֲכוֹתֶיךָ.

And this is way I said :
וַיְהִי, לִדְרֹשׁ אֱלֹהִים, בִּימֵי זְכַרְיָהוּ, הַמֵּבִין בִּרְאֹת הָאֱלֹהִים; וּבִימֵי דָּרְשׁוֹ אֶת-יְהוָה, הִצְלִיחוֹ הָאֱלֹהִים.
i hope this is what you mean , please let me know if i made it clear or not .
Yours faithfully
Ilan

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...

Hagyan

While I get my answer to Ilan ready, could you elaborate on the intersection of which you speak?

Is it related to the nature of the premises one should believe on authority, Tzadikim,rather than what we would call scientists?

הראשון דבר שתהיה עליו ראיה ברורה מדעתו של אדם כגון חכמת החשבון, וגימטריאות, ותקופות.
והשני דבר שישיגנו האדם באחד מהחמש הרגשות, כגון שידע ויראה שזה שחור וזה אדום וכיוצא בזה בראית עינו. או שיטעום שזה מר וזה מתוק. או שימשש שזה חם וזה קר. או שישמע שזה קול צלול וזה קול הברה. או שיריח שזה ריח באוש וזה ריח ערב וכיוצא באלו.
והשלישי דבר שיקבל אותו האדם מן הנביאים ע"ה ומן הצדיקים.

Hagyan said...

Rabbi Sacks,

I'll wait for you to reply to Ilan. Might give us more "intersections" to work with. Anyway, for the moment, Ilan's reference to דברי הימים ב פרק כו is giving me some nice exercise.

Hagyan said...

Ilan,

You mentioned twice (first here, then here) the פסוק:

[דברי הימים ב. כו/ה]
וַיְהִי, לִדְרֹשׁ אֱלֹהִים, בִּימֵי זְכַרְיָהוּ, הַמֵּבִין בִּרְאֹת הָאֱלֹהִים; וּבִימֵי דָּרְשׁוֹ אֶת-יְהוָה, הִצְלִיחוֹ הָאֱלֹהִים

Do you think this teaches us to limit ourselves according to our present ability in the mitsva "אֵלָיו תִּשְׁמָעוּן", and that doing so is a foundation of "הצלחה"?

Many thanks.

Unknown said...

Shavoah tov הגיין,

Do you think this teaches us to limit ourselves according to our present ability in the mitsva "אֵלָיו תִּשְׁמָעוּן", and that doing so is a foundation of "הצלחה"?
I must say I had to read you question many times before I got it. However please forgive me if I did not get your question. I am not a rabbi so please be mindful what I write is wrong. I believe you are correct, but I have big concern to the way you put it (“limit our self”). I believe it is true in Judaism you could be rewarded by your effort in observing the mitzvoth, as the purpose of doing the mitzvoth is to do them. Saying that, there is an acknowledgment that some individual, under particular circumstances of time, location and event, could straggle in an unfair proportion to other to fulfil a one mitzvah. Therefore may have some dispensation.

Notwithstanding the above the difficulty I have with the way I understand your posting to me it is giving me a bad feeling, I will tell you why. In my synagogue this stance / process it been place in writing on the ark” put g-d before me always “שויתי ה לנגדי תמיד.” I believe this mean you should not put yourself as the judge of what is your limit of what you should do. These mean what mitzvoth we should be observing come from the Torah/G-d and not us human decide what mitzvoth to do or not to do.

The minute one decides what mitzvoth to he observing or not. You no longer hold the tree of life. (Which you all ready know what I mean tree of life.)
Shavoah tov
Ilan

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...

Hagyan

Could you spell out your sense of

ויהי לדרש אלהים, בימי זכריהו, המבין בראת האלהים

If you put in pesukim, please do not use nikkud, it is very difficult to read.

Unknown said...

Dear Rabbi Jonathan Sacks,

I have spoken to self acclaim צדוקי
From : איסיים וצדוקים.

His congregation tell me something you may find very intriguing.

They speak old Hebrew.

The word truth means law.

The word Emat mean good or to do a good deed .

Regards
Ilan

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...

Ilan

I think you are right to seek out the Emet about Torah. However, the mere fact that the language of a community is old, does not mean it is true to the original. It could also be preserving an ancient error.

If one were to find an ancient Beit Knesset in Israel, it might well be decorated with the very Avoda Zara pictures, that they were imitating from the nations around them then. This would be preserved for us to see today.

So too language, the beliefs of the community, right or wrong, will be preserved in the language as well.

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...

Blogger Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...

Ilan

In the case of a torah giving prophecy, it is my opinion once the torah been giving any other new torah giving prophecy is inherently false, as the new torah prophecy can not be beyond reasonable doubt “kosher” prophecy, in other words I will always have to ask what is the MOTIVATION the prophet have to give a new torah where you have a Kosher one already (Moshe).

I am not sure I understand the notion of "motivation" in the case of Moshe Rabbenu's prophecy. What do you mean by "motivation"?

Specifically, you are saying that a prophet coming after Moshe, who gave a new Torah,would have a suspicious motivation. What was Moshe's motivation? Why was it not suspicious?

Unknown said...

Dear Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said,

Ok, the best way I understand how to demonstrate the issue of “motivation” in prophecy is to get help from the academic world. More precisely from the philosophy of science. Where I can drew perfect analogy to the prophecy process. When it comes to philosophy of science, one of the key discussions is how to avoid Instillation, infusion or insertion of “human (“אנושים “) element”, in to the research, and by doing so taking away from the truth, missing the truth and getting erroneous result. That discipline is also applied to the process of prophecy. The application is different but the discipline that serving the outcome is the same. I am aware in the case of prophecy other parts of the brain* needed to participate in holistic manner. (*8 chapters of Rambam)

My understanding of prophecy, the prophet apply/ materialize the truth to a human behaviour/ law. That why I can reveres engineer from the חומש One of the dimensions of Moses prophecy& (רק מן המושכלות ולא מן המפורסמות ). Once the formula x+z=y is clear in other words the principal of truth is clear, and you get all the dimensions of truth applied to human.
Then prophecy can be applied or if you have mental illness you can copy directly from the torah. Therefore I believe some people can be trained how to give ostensibly perfectly good prophecy which prima facie you will not know it is false prophecy. That still not makes their prophecy a word of G-d. All this could occur, because the precursor contaminates the prophecy of the prophet.

&for example our festivals, when I explain the first festival Passover (see my number 3 post), most teachers I have tested it on, come up with the same sequence of festivals… It worked every times…if you like more on this issue I can talk with you next time you are in Australia.

One more example, for high-end lawyer of barrister specializing in contractual law, it would be most suitable to try analysing Halachot Teshuva ( הלכות תשובה ) of Rambam. Halachot Teshuva to some degree are autonomous and less dependent on background information, by their own nature making them suitable candidate to reverse engineer prophecy.


But what set Moses a part, Moses giving a Torah prophecy is beyond reasonable doubt. Moses prophecy is unalloyed from human element as precursor to the torah. Moses torah is the word of g-d. It is because Moses had no competition or external motivation to have precursor. You can always say but how can I be sure of his internal motivation? And for that I will say “I see the voices”...

When I said “motivation” I mean there is always a suspicion that human element as precursor been infused to any new giving torah prophecy by is very virtue of a new torah, therefore making any prophet giving a new torah prophecy false one.
“If I see the voices “what would drive one to replace Moses torah? I never seen “new prophet” comes with one more patriotism or communism or socialisation… and I am not talking about alterations of these values. What would you think if I tell you I have a communism? And my communism is “bigger”... You be wondering what is benefit or logic of replacing one value with the same one?
Please note if you know Moses torah. You know yoke of haven is yoke of mitzvoth.
This is very essence of my thought. It is the notion new torah prophecy could never be guarantee to be unalloyed from “human (“אנושים “) element, therefore it false.

However the “Chinese” giving Torah, I mean a prophet who truly does not know Moses Torah, left me more perplexed before I have started corresponding with you.
Your explanation in dignity of different satisfied me.
Now I know I am also eating from the apple tree.
And I can say: פסוק כ"ח: וַאֲנִי, קִרְבַת אֱלֹהִים-- לִי-טוֹב
Yours faithfully
Ilan

Unknown said...

Dear Rabbi Jonathan Sacks,

Ok, the best way I understand how to demonstrate the issue of “motivation” in prophecy is to get help from the academic world. More precisely from the philosophy of science. Where I can drew perfect analogy to the prophecy process. When it comes to philosophy of science, one of the key discussions is how to avoid Instillation, infusion or insertion of “human (“אנושים “) element”, in to the research, and by doing so taking away from the truth, missing the truth and getting erroneous result. That discipline is also applied to the process of prophecy. The application is different but the discipline that serving the outcome is the same. I am aware in the case of prophecy other parts of the brain* needed to participate in holistic manner. (*8 chapters of Rambam)

My understanding of prophecy, the prophet apply/ materialize the truth to a human behaviour/ law. That why I can reveres engineer from the חומש One of the dimensions of Moses prophecy& (רק מן המושכלות ולא מן המפורסמות ). Once the formula x+z=y is clear in other words the principal of truth is clear, and you get all the dimensions of truth applied to human.
Then prophecy can be applied or if you have mental illness you can copy directly from the torah. Therefore I believe some people can be trained how to give ostensibly perfectly good prophecy which prima facie you will not know it is false prophecy. That still not makes their prophecy a word of G-d. All this could occur, because the precursor contaminates the prophecy of the prophet.

&for example our festivals, when I explain the first festival Passover (see my number 3 post), most teachers I have tested it on, come up with the same sequence of festivals… It worked every times…if you like more on this issue I can talk with you next time you are in Australia.

One more example, for high-end lawyer of barrister specializing in contractual law, it would be most suitable to try analysing Halachot Teshuva ( הלכות תשובה ) of Rambam. Halachot Teshuva to some degree are autonomous and less dependent on background information, by their own nature making them suitable candidate to reverse engineer prophecy.


But what set Moses a part, Moses giving a Torah prophecy is beyond reasonable doubt. Moses prophecy is unalloyed from human element as precursor to the torah. Moses torah is the word of g-d. It is because Moses had no competition or external motivation to have precursor. You can always say but how can I be sure of his internal motivation? And for that I will say “I see the voices”...

When I said “motivation” I mean there is always a suspicion that human element as precursor been infused to any new giving torah prophecy by is very virtue of a new torah, therefore making any prophet giving a new torah prophecy false one.
“If I see the voices “what would drive one to replace Moses torah? I never seen “new prophet” comes with one more patriotism or communism or socialisation… and I am not talking about alterations of these values. What would you think if I tell you I have a communism? And my communism is “bigger”... You be wondering what is benefit or logic of replacing one value with the same one?
Please note if you know Moses torah. You know yoke of haven is yoke of mitzvoth.
This is very essence of my thought. It is the notion new torah prophecy could never be guarantee to be unalloyed from “human (“אנושים “) element, therefore it false.

However the “Chinese” giving torah, I mean a prophet who truly does not know Moses torah, left me more perplexed before I have started corresponding with you.
Your explanation in dignity of different satisfied me.
Now I know I am also eating from the apple tree.
And I can say פסוק כ"ח: וַאֲנִי, קִרְבַת אֱלֹהִים-- לִי-טוֹב
Yours faithfully
Ilan

Unknown said...

Dear Rabbi Jonathan Sacks,

Ok, the best way I understand how to demonstrate the issue of “motivation” in prophecy is to get help from the academic world. More precisely from the philosophy of science. Where I can drew perfect analogy to the prophecy process. When it comes to philosophy of science, one of the key discussions is how to avoid Instillation, infusion or insertion of “human (“אנושים “) element”, in to the research, and by doing so taking away from the truth, missing the truth and getting erroneous result. That discipline is also applied to the process of prophecy. The application is different but the discipline that serving the outcome is the same. I am aware in the case of prophecy other parts of the brain* needed to participate in holistic manner. (*8 chapters of Rambam)

My understanding of prophecy, the prophet apply/ materialize the truth to a human behaviour/ law. That why I can reveres engineer from the חומש One of the dimensions of Moses prophecy& (רק מן המושכלות ולא מן המפורסמות ). Once the formula x+z=y is clear in other words the principal of truth is clear, and you get all the dimensions of truth applied to human.
Then prophecy can be applied or if you have mental illness you can copy directly from the torah. Therefore I believe some people can be trained how to give ostensibly perfectly good prophecy which prima facie you will not know it is false prophecy. That still not makes their prophecy a word of G-d. All this could occur, because the precursor contaminates the prophecy of the prophet.

&for example our festivals, when I explain the first festival Passover (see my number 3 post), most teachers I have tested it on, come up with the same sequence of festivals… It worked every times…if you like more on this issue I can talk with you next time you are in Australia.

One more example, for high-end lawyer of barrister specializing in contractual law, it would be most suitable to try analysing Halachot Teshuva ( הלכות תשובה ) of Rambam. Halachot Teshuva to some degree are autonomous and less dependent on background information, by their own nature making them suitable candidate to reverse engineer prophecy.


But what set Moses a part, Moses giving a Torah prophecy is beyond reasonable doubt. Moses prophecy is unalloyed from human element as precursor to the torah. Moses torah is the word of g-d. It is because Moses had no competition or external motivation to have precursor. You can always say but how can I be sure of his internal motivation? And for that I will say “I see the voices”...

When I said “motivation” I mean there is always a suspicion that human element as precursor been infused to any new giving torah prophecy by is very virtue of a new torah, therefore making any prophet giving a new torah prophecy false one.
“If I see the voices “what would drive one to replace Moses torah? I never seen “new prophet” comes with one more patriotism or communism or socialisation… and I am not talking about alterations of these values. What would you think if I tell you I have a communism? And my communism is “bigger”... You be wondering what is benefit or logic of replacing one value with the same one?
Please note if you know Moses torah. You know yoke of haven is yoke of mitzvoth.
This is very essence of my thought. It is the notion new torah prophecy could never be guarantee to be unalloyed from “human (“אנושים “) element, therefore it false.

However the “Chinese” giving torah, I mean a prophet who truly does not know Moses torah, left me more perplexed before I have started corresponding with you.
Your explanation in dignity of different satisfied me.

Yours faithfully
Ilan

Hagyan said...

Rabbi Sacks,

Re: Your question on July 24 about my reading of:
ויהי, לדרוש אלוהים, בימי זכריהו, המבין בראות האלוהים; ובימי דורשו את-יהוה, הצליחו האלוהים.

First, I responded to "לדרוש אלוהים" versus "דורשו את-יהוה", and then I responded to שמות פרק י"ח [start of פרשת יתרו], starting at פסוק י"ג; especially to פסוק כ"ב:
ושפטו את-העם, בכל-עת, והיה כל-הדבר הגדול יביאו אליך, וכל-הדבר הקטון ישפטו-הם; והקל, מעליך, ונשאו, איתך.

Hagyan said...

Rabbi Sacks,

Re: Part of your question of July 22

and Re: My remarks on February 10

and Re: My previous comment

You mentioned (July 22) there that there is a difference between 'צדיקים' and "what we would call scientists".

Consider עוזייהו: During the time of his הצלחה before his nation-endangering crime, he was a מלך צדיק who would have availed himself of the אורים ותומים. Modern scientists (Einstein and Feynman, for example) conceive of a 'universe' in which אורים ותומים are an impossibility. (E.g., a 'universe' in which an 'observer' need only have a photon impinge on his retina.)

Hagyan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...

Ilan

It is a fundamental of our system that Moshe was not subject to motivations of a personal character in his prophecy. See David Guttman's article at the side of his blog, published articles,titled

Negative Attributes and Direct Prophecy

for a very thorough explanation of this.

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...

http://yediah.blogspot.com/

Hagyan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

Dear Rabbi Jonathan Sacks,
a) Your answer left me a bit perplex, the point I have tried to make, in all my writing is to see if I can establish that Moses torah is unalloyed from any motivation, but doing so outside the boundary of the oral torah.
By the way, Moses subject to personal motivation never was my question. It was never my issue; the issue I have is: I could not conceive how a new prophet can give a new torah to any nation.
My questions are is my arguments are valid arguments, because I did not want to base my arguments on oral torah.

b) I prefer to rich the conclusion myself and only then to check with Rambam if I am wrong.
In summary: This why I think Moses had no internal motivation.
1. It is mitzvah for me to believe in Moses prophecy, full stop. (I know Moses come face to face with Hasham. And remove his shoes off.)
2. For more then 3000 years we are checking Moss’s prophecy, and every generation “try to see the voices”.
3. The emergent of Moses came after the advent of our forefathers, our forefathers entered into the covenant. When Moses gave prophecy, it was in a climate of uncompromising faithfulness to the covenant. In other words Moses Torah/oral Torah is imperative.
4. Israel been Chasidim to Hashem

This is why I believe Moses’s prophecy had no external influence and this is also why the “internal point/motivation” is not relevant.
But this was not my issue; the issue I have is: no new prophet can given a new Torah to any nation. To argue that outside the regulatory frame work of the oral Torah.

Regards
Ilan

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...

Ilan

Please try to make only one point at a time, ok? It is a little hard to follow your English.

Ilan says

Your answer left me a bit perplex, the point I have tried to make, in all my writing is to see if I can establish that Moses torah is unalloyed from any motivation, but doing so outside the boundary of the oral torah.

I ask

Why do you want to establish that Moses Torah had no motivation?

If you answer that one question simply, I think I will be able to move on to the next.

I remember my Grandfather, a very good mathematician, used to say, always do things the easy way, even when its harder. He said it to me quite often, so I guess I did not always listen so well! Its still a very good approach. Lets both try to follow it, Ok Ilan?

Hagyan said...

Rabbi Sacks and Ilan,

I thought to tell you that I am following your מסא-ומתן with interest. It happens that I feel both sides as "foreign".

I will not join your מסא-ומתן because that would risk complicating it factorially.

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...

Hagyan

My communication with Ilan, is still too preliminary to be called משא ומתן. I neither agree nor disagree with anything. I merely seek to clarify my understanding of Ilan's position,so that I will be able to judge whether I agree or not.

Unknown said...

Dear Rabbi Jonathan Sacks,
1) Point one: Any new torah is false, can I base it on objective category?
Rambam teaching us that, the definition of prophecy, it is transcending external and internal motivation, which can be achieved when the prophet is in a total state of truth.
I know it is putting my questions to you in odd with Rambam.
2) Point two: Notwithstanding Rambam, the essence of the truth is making giving the torah once only event?
If the answer it yes: then any new torah inherently will have a stain of precursor “internal motivation” therefore is false.
3) point three: Moses torah for me is objectively תמימה. Therefore the question I ask is what needs we have for a new torah? New torah by definition will conflict with Moses Torah.
However this is not saying new torah can not be adhering to the principles and to the mechanics of prophecy, in other words the new torah could be mechanically with out blemish, except it will always have a stain of precursor which makes it false.
Therefore no prophet who gives new Torah can be beyond reasonable doubt devoid from precursor “internal motivation”.
P.S. I already explained why Moses can not be in the category doubt.
Shavua tov

Ilan

Hagyan said...

Rabbi Sacks,

This is a revised revision to my second comment of July 26.

[First revision in italics; revised revision in bold]

... Modern scientists (Einstein and Feynman, for example) conceive of a 'universe' in which אורים ותומים are an impossibility. (E.g., a 'universe' in which an 'observer' need only have a photon impinge on his retina, and this is sufficient for 'human שלמות'.) I think תשבע"פ therefore enlightens us to modulate our response according to which of two different marvellous goods we perceive; viz., on perceiving a חכם אומות העולם we respond:

ברוך ... שנתן מחכמתו לבשר ודם

but on perceiving a חכם ישראל we respond:

ברוך ... שנתן מחכמתו ליראיו


(Not completely off-topic: Kott O., Šumbera R., Němec P. (2010) Light Perception in Two Strictly Subterranean Rodents: Life in the Dark or Blue? PLoS ONE 5(7))

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...

Ilan

Thank you for clarifying

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...

Hagyan

Nice Gedanken. I much prefer that to mere language.

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...

Ilan

Does this leave a question for me to respond to? I am not quite sure.

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said...

Hagyan

I enjoy the consideration of the phenomenon of encountering a Chacham of the two varieties. This is meaningful to me. Your more abstarct language, is often less so.

Unknown said...

Dear Rabbi,
I gave it my best shot however, prophecy as Rambam telling us is for all humanity and by definition I can not doubt prophecy. I did not comprehend:
[ב] ואם יעלה על הדעת שהוא אינו מצוי, אין דבר אחר יכול להימצאות. [ג] ואם יעלה על הדעת שאין כל הנמצאים מלבדו מצויים, הוא לבדו יהיה מצוי ולא ייבטל הוא לביטולם: שכל הנמצאים צריכין לו; והוא ברוך הוא אינו צריך להם, ולא לאחד מהם.

However as Jew:
כל בית ישראל מצווין על קידוש השם הגדול הזה.
My obligating as a Jew is defined by our convent and קידוש השם.
Therefore my arguments are only good for a Jew.
Regards
Ilan

Unknown said...

sssoooorrryyyy
convent = Covenant

Unknown said...

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks,

Finely I hope I grasped your book dignity of different..

this is how i got there:
i ask why Moses called:
עבד נאמן השם?

האם יתכן שהמילה ,עבד,עבד נאמן השם.
קשורה לעובדה
fact.

from what you said:
המילה אמת בשימוש חילוני מקורה יווני. כלומר השימוש שלנו במילה אמת הוא שונה מהיוונים.

אצלנו רק אלוקים הוא אמת.
אין שום דבר מלבד אלוקים שהוא אמת.
לכן אצלנו אפשר רק לבקש או לשאוף לאמת אבל אי אפשר להשיג.אפשר לבקש או לשאוף לדעת את אלוקים אבל אי אפשר להשיג.
ולכן הזהירות שלא להשיג את לאלוקים

מדען ,חוקר מחפש את העובדות.הוא לא מחפש את האמת.
כי אמת אי אפשר להשיג.

לדעתי יש קשר הדוק בין חוקים ,חוקיות ועובדות.אנחנו עם של תורה. ותורה זה חוקים...אולי המימוש של חוקים הוא עובדות...

איך בודקים נאמנות להשם? עלידי כיום
מיצוות. מיצוות זה חוקים.
אולי מימוש חוקים זה עובדות=עבד

Please let me know, is there something in what I think?
Ilan

Unknown said...

Dear Rabbi Jonathan Sacks,

Please find the chronology of our discussion:
First, I have miss-understood prophecy for non-Jews and in general. You fixed my understanding.

Second, why I am As Jew obligate to moss prophecy? And Only a Jew is obligate to Moses prophecy.

therefore Accepting prophecy inherit the property of truth.

Third I have read your explanation between truth and truthful for Jewish peoples.

Forth My revelation on Shabbat morning prays in my synagogue, Parashat Reeh. Re Moses:
לדעתי יש קשר הדוק בין חוקים ,חוקיות ועובדות.אנחנו עם של תורה. ותורה זה חוקים...אולי המימוש של חוקים הוא עובדות...

איך בודקים נאמנות להשם? עלידי כיום
מיצוות. מיצוות זה חוקים.
אולי מימוש חוקים זה עובדות=עבד
this is why Moses called עבד.

Fifth, therefore the realism of the dividing line between reaching g-d and the work of g-d. עבד and נאמן confine and oriented only to work of g-d and not to g-d.In Judaism, g-d is exclusively truth, as result it is looking like to me עבד and נאמן is a rejection or opposing the actualization of reaching g-d. I think that what Rambam mean, he putted in a positive term: דע שכּל המעשׂים האלה של עבודת ה', כגון קריאת התורה, התפילה ועשׂיית שאר המצוות אין מטרתם אלא שתרגיל עצמך לעסוק בְּצִווּיָיו יתעלה, ולא תעסוק בענייני העולם הזה, כאילו אתה עוסק בו יתעלה ולא
בזולתו
===============================
כאילו אתה עוסק בו
================================

Taking my thinking one more step, ממציא כל הנמצא, is also apply to our faith and the Mitzvah… therefore :ד [ו] וידיעת דבר זה מצות עשה, שנאמר "אנוכי ה' אלוהיך"

Yours faithfully

Ilan

Unknown said...

Dear rabbi...

לעניות דעתי בניגוד לחתם סופר:

שו"ת חת"ם סופר, חיו"ד, תשובה שנ"ו: "אי אפשר לי בשום אופן להאמין שתהיה גאולתנו אחד מעיקרי הדת ושאם יפול היסוד תפול החומה חלילה...
===================================
לעניות דעתי משיח לרמבם זו האוטופיה
של מימוש ערכי האמונה היהודית שלנו.
===================================
ולכן הרמבם השאיר את המשיח כיסוד בשלוש עשר עיקרים.
כמובן שאוטופיה היא בלתי ניתנת להשגה, ולכן כל הסיגים והזהירות שרמבם שם שלא להתבלבל בכוונת המשמעות של משיח.

is this impassible thinking?

yours
Ilan

Unknown said...

Dear Rabbi , the flow on affect from prophecy.is...

השאלה ששאלתי איך מגשרים בין השם
מצווה אותנו לשלילת התארים של הרמב
ם?

האם יש כאן האנשה של אלוהים?

אני לא הצלחתי למצוא מה הרמב ם אומר בנושא זה.

זה הוא הפתרון שהגעתי אליו
אמת זה דבר שכפוי עלי.

שני תפוחים ועוד שני תפוחים זה ארבע תפוחים,
ארבע תפוחים זה כפוי עלי,
אין לי ברירה אני מוכרח לקבל עובדה זאת כי זה אמת.

מצווה זה אמת או אמיתי ולכן
מצווה וצווי זה כפוי עלי כמו שארבעה תפוחים כפוי עלי.

האם אפשר ליטעון שצווי וכפוי זה אותו דבר?

אם כן אז פתרתי את החידה
בהוקרה רבה אילן