Post Tisha B'av discussion #3: Modern Day Movements

Mrs Adler
This is not a new thought but seems even clearer in the light of our discussions.  Both Chasidus as an 'organized' movement revolving around messianism and mysticism, and the more liberal movements which reject the divinity of Torah are the result of imperfect attempts to bring Judaism into the modern world.  In both cases there is a rejection of the perceived status quo as being insufficiently persuasive in light of 'modern' rational thought, archeology, science, 'Biblical Criticism', or whatever system is thought to be most ascendant at that moment.  Both extremes want to salvage what they consider to be the essence of Judaism.  But Chasidus reverts to mysticism, more of a Christian approach that since none of this is really rational anyway, it can only be believed using a system that is essentially emotional and non-rational.  The more liberal movements similarly reject the possibility that Torah is rational and can stand up to modern scrutiny.  But their answer is to only keep those things that seem to make sense to them.

My Answer
What you are saying is exactly the opinion of the Rav, in his 5 lectures. In the lecture, the Rav points out that it is an absolute fundamental that the Torah, as a Wisdom from the Creator, be applicable in all times and places.

The Rav goes so far as to state that this notion is the 14th Ikkar, adding one to the 13 of the Rambam. Another approach is to say that the idea is intrinsic to the 9th Ikar that the Torah is immutable and will never be changed or replaced.

In either event, the denial of this Ikar, on the left by Reform and the right by the "new ghetto" is a Kefirah in the Ikkar and is the source of untold misery.

With a proper refocusing of Modern Orthodoxy on Yesodei Hatorah and a rational view of Mitzvot as taught by Rambam, we can move  past this difficult phase of our Emancipation.

Post Tisha B'av discussion #2

Mrs Adler 

To what degree do you think that the objections of Israeli Jews toward Orthodoxy are found in adherents of the more liberal Jewish movements in America?  I could see some of your analysis (about typical Israelis who believe in G-d but cannot deal with the 'magic' that they see as part of Orthodoxy and thus reject Orthodoxy) applying to some American Jews.  It is not a perfect fit because there are some American Jews who actually could buy the magic but do not want to be burdened with the lifestyle - but it seems to me that serious adherents of some of the liberal movements have fled Orthodoxy because of what they see as an anti-rational, anti-historical, anti-reality perspective.

My Response

I agree with you, the issue is really more of a post emancipation issue than an Israeli issue. After all these generations we are still struggling to deal with the fact that the secure walls of the ghetto have fallen down.

The ghetto walls provided a secure home which screened the reality that people were keeping a traditional form of halachic activity without very much scrutiny of the Philosophical basis of that activity. As the ghetto walls have come down, we are paying a very severe price for continuing that unreflective approach to Judaism in all communities all over the globe.

 

 

Post Tisha B'av discussion

Mrs Adler's questions

#1

So to apply this to the American political system - the danger of identifying as a 'Democrat' or a 'Republican' is that you might fall prey to the belief that any man-made system has all the answers, forgetting the limits of human control, and forgetting G-d and thus potentially forfeiting the opportunity to really find the correct path by applying true wisdom principles.  That would be true of any 'knee-jerk' emotional reaction to a political problem.

 

#2

 

But even so - could one by accident be following the 'better' of existing paths, even though the process of getting there is not ideal?  Perhaps you follow a political ideoligy because that is what most Jews do, or it is what your parents did.  Is it not still possible that it might be the more sensible path even though you have not adopted it due to true examination of its principles.  

 

#3

 

And where does patriotism fit into this?  Surely there is a role for that somewhere.  America is not perfect because it is the product of human endeavor - but it is so far superior to so many places.  What is the place for hakorat hatov here?  

 

#4

 

I also have a lot of questions as to how we should approach Eretz Yisrael as American Jews.  So many Jews assume that there is an inherent kedushah to the land which I assume might be part of the more dangerous aspect of religious Zionism.  What do you think about that?

 

My Response

 

#1 

 

 Yes, the idea of Geula includes having a healthy skepticism toward all nationalism. Healthy skepticism does not mean that we deny the unique accomplishments of the USA however. The founding principles of our country are a historic accomplishment and should be treasured as such. We should moderate our appreciation however, with an expectation that the USA, like any human system, will still have limitations Geula via the Torah is the ultimate solution to.

A very important basis of growth that Ralbag points to in Kohelet is opening one's mind to other approaches. Republican's would do well to seek out the weakness in their approach that democrats are stronger in. The reverse is certainly true as well. This is the hallmark of the true leader, finding the common ground that enriches all approaches and removes their extreme limiting character.

 

#2 

 

There are certainly better and worse non Jewish approaches, as there are better and worse Jewish ones. One may indeed fall on better and worse approaches by accident. The son of Avraham, Yitzchak, was in a vastly better situation than any of the sons of Haman. To truly grow however, one must use free choice in moving beyond ones first education, whatever the source of that education might have been, even Yitzchak and Avraham Avinu.

#3

 

 The better the principles of the country one is in, the more one should appreciate that country. One has a duty to work together with fellow citizens to bring out the best in our country in all matters that relate to our shared wellbeing. In matters of Religion however, we strongly endorse the separation of church and state and are against Missionary activity of any kind, Jewish or non Jewish.

#4

If we properly define Kedusha, there is no problem with saying their is an intrinsic Kedusha to Israel. The problem arises when we view Kedusha as a mystical force, rather than a category of existing things. Kedusha refers to an entity that is distinct from others in some important way. We say Kiddush on Shabbos to distinguish its unique character as a time. Israel is unique as the designated place of redemption where the principles of Torah will ultimately be expressed in a truly free human civilization.